Funding for To the Contrary provided by The E. Rhodes and Leona B .

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It's about wages.

It's about benefits like health care.

But it's also about having a voice in the workplace to be able to speak up without fear.

♪ Hello I'm Bonnie Erbe' Welcome to To the Contrary a discussion of news and social trends from diverse perspectives.

This week, we continue our Women Thought Leader series with the first female president of the AFL-CIO, Liz Shuler.

The AFL CIO represents more than 12 and a half million workers, of whom over 6 million are women, making it the largest representation of female workers in the country.

So welcome.

Liz Shuler, how are you?

Thank you so much, Bonnie.

I'm honored to be with you today and thank you for pointing out that the labor movement is a movement for women.

It's a movement for women, maybe, but it has not been run by women in any way, shape or form.

And you are a pioneer in in that situation.

So how did you get to the top of a group that's been so male dominated that there have been movies made about how the Mafia controlled unions back in the last part of the last century?

What, how, how did you have to fight to get to where you are?

Well, I did it like many women in our movement, which is working behind the scenes, doing a lot of the hard work, but, you know, running phone banks and writing policy and being out in the streets, organizing women into unions.

And I came up through the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, which I like to say the sisterhood is implied, but it's it's.

(Bonnie) So are you are you an electrician?

I came up through the electric utility industry, and I was a clerical worker.

And we decided to organize a union because the men in, the power linemen had a union, the IBEW and the clerical workers did not.

And we saw the difference in how we were treated.

We didn't have a measure of respect.

We didn't we weren't heard.

We weren't invited in.

We didn't have a contract where our working conditions were spelled out.

So we decided to come together, like many women do and workplaces all across this country, and saw the power of that collective action.

So we organized to form a union.

Unfortunately, the union effort was not successful because the company did what a lot of corporations do in this country.

They intimidated and harassed us and had captive audience meetings telling us why we shouldn't organize and that was how my activism actually was born.

And I ended up going to work for the local union to organize more people into unions.

And your family, were your father anyway, was a union member, correct?

Correct.

My dad was the power lineman that I was just referring to it the electric utility.

My mother was also a clerical worker, so she and I organized together.

We worked in different departments.

But the idea was that these were companies back then that were family operations.

Generations of people worked at those companies.

It's not that way today.

As we know, the the corporate greed has skyrocketed and a lot of the Wall Street titans are now controlling companies that don't necessarily have workers best interests in mind anymore these days.

So it's been a change in culture that I think has really driven more people to take another look at forming unions.

Yeah, tell me about that.

Because is union membership still in decline in the United States?

It used to be at its very height I would probably I would guess probably in the middle of last century, a lot more than the 13% that it had dwindled to, a mere percent of Americans were members of unions.

Now we're in.

And that was mainly guys in the coal mines, ironworkers, construction jobs, etc.

high paying jobs, but very dangerous work in this, in the age of the Internet.

Are, is this changing and are more Americans joining unions than leaving unions?

Well, absolutely.

The economy has changed over time and so has the labor movement.

And you think back to the 1930s when the National Labor Relations Act was passed, that was the dawn of a new era where people were flocking to form unions and the law was on their side.

And then at the height in the 1970s, where technology was really starting to take hold, the economy changed.

And as you said, more and more people who were trying to form unions and this new emerging aspect of the economy found that the labor law had changed over time, making it more difficult to form unions.

And now we're seeing broken laws that allow companies to intimidate and harass people who want to form a union.

We saw in the Amazon drive, for example, in Alabama, where workers came together and wanted to form a union and we're getting followed into the bathrooms and surveilled and intimidated.

So the law does not give any corporation pause.

You know, they can get away with it.

They can intimidate and harass workers.

And and there's really no consequence.

So that's really at the heart of why Union numbers have declined, as well as the labor movement didn't necessarily modernize and change as fast as we need it to.

And so I think that's what's really exciting about this moment is as the economy is changing, we are building a bold, dynamic, modern labor movement to meet the moment, to be the place where workers can come to make change in their workplace.

Was 13 the nadir of union?

13% of American Union membership, or did it sink lower Or what is it now, please?

Well, we have around, yes, it's 13 overall and that includes (13%)public private sector.

Right, 13% .

(Shuler) In the private sector, of course, is lower.

But I think the point is that, yes, the numbers have declined and right now we're in a resurgence.

We're seeing people organize across industries that have never seen unions before, we have that's what I meant.

That's what I meant was I mean, the recent actions for example, at Amazon and Starbucks, are, are they monumental to, and does that point to the future of union development and organization, meaning high tech companies?

Absolutely.

And we just saw some Apple workers come together in Towson Maryland a week or so ago with the machinists union.

And, you know, CWA is organizing game workers, game developers at Activision Blizzard.

So yes, absolutely.

There is no type of work or workplace that's off limits.

And when you see workers at Amazon and Starbucks rising up with REI workers and graduate researchers at the University of California system It's all young people and people who who have had enough.

They're fed up with being called essential through the pandemic and then now are being treated as expendable and they're working one, two and three jobs to get by.

And you've heard of this great resignation where people were quitting their jobs like 4 million people a month were quitting their jobs, and it's because they don't feel respected, paid, protected.

And the workplace culture is so toxic that people are looking for more, they're looking for better, and they're finding unions as the place to get that.

Okay.

But a lot of these companies, for example, Amazon's response to the union drives with Staten Island, for example, in New York was to raise wages to a pretty high level.

I don't remember what.

So if they're making $25 an hour, let's say driving being the delivery, you know, the backbone, but the delivery people for a place like a high tech company like Amazon and they unionize, what can you guys do more for them than 25 bucks an hour?

Well, it's about wages.

It's about benefits like health care and paid leave.

But it's also about having a voice in the workplace to be able to speak up without fear.

When you see unsafe conditions, and feel that you're not going to lose your job, if you question management by app and not have any recourse when you're fired by a robot.

So I think it's wages and benefits and bread and butter, but it's also some of the intangibles, things like workplace culture, where people feel disrespected or have a bad boss that they're tired of not being heard from.

So I think you're seeing all kinds of reasons.

But the other effect that unionization has, as you've seen with Amazon, is when people come together and organize, they're more powerful and the company responds, even if they're not unionized.

Sometimes the company puts in a paid leave policy because they want to avoid a union.

So there's this impact of coming together collectively, being more powerful and being able to make the change.

But the difference with the union is you have it in writing, you have a contract and you have an actual seat at the table across from your managers and you are on an level playing field to be able to bargain for the change that you'd like to see.

And so tell me about how that's working, for example, with the the two new Amazon unions.

What are you is is it the voice that you're working for, giving workers a voice in how they're treated and when they work and how they work?

Fewer hours, more regular hours?

Is that where you're starting with these groups and are they on your or are they under your umbrella?

We're working alongside the Amazon Labor Union is the one in Staten Island that has gotten so much attention because they did something incredible.

They fought against the company, Amazon that is the richest, most powerful company in the world and they won.

And the labor movement, our unions in the umbrella of the AFL-CIO, 57 unions have been marching right alongside them in solidarity and lifting them up.

We're providing resources.

We're helping them with some of their NLRB filings because their challenge.

National Labor Relations Board, which is.

Sorry.

Spell it out for the audience.

And to know that they do have a challenge ahead of them and trying to negotiate a first contract, because once you've won the union drive, you have to get management to sit down and negotiate.

And of course, Amazon is resisting that.

And so we're helping them think through strategies to get Amazon at the table.

And then what could that first contract look like?

Because that will be the most important step is to actually get in writing those critically important issues that workers in the organized around in the first place.

And you mentioned scheduling that is a big issue not just at Amazon, but for workers all across this country who feel that they're in more precarious work environments, less predictability, less they're not able to plan, they're not able to provide for their families in the way that they'd like because they don't have that certainty.

And that is one thing that we negotiate in union contracts is to make sure there's fair scheduling, health care benefits, paid leave safety and health protections so that you can feel secure in your job.

Do you ever negotiate diversity clauses into your union contracts?

In other words, do you protect women and people of color in terms of being hired and promoted as opposed to not hired and fired?

Absolutely.

And I always like to say the best way for women to get equal pay is to join a union.

And you have it in writing that the job pays a certain amount.

And, you know, exactly.

It's transparent.

There's no secrecy where you have to wonder if your coworker who's a male, is being paid differently because everyone knows with your union contract what your job pays.

But I would say that, you know, the issue of harassment is very much a bargainable issue that we include in our contracts to make sure that workers have a voice and and protection and not have the fear of speaking out and getting fired.

Because your boss is harassing you or a coworker.

And so that's, you know, of course, harassment.

But there are also things we use collective bargaining for with regard to the modern workplace, like the concerns around your company's carbon footprint, for example, I've seen examples where workers come together and they say, you know what, we want our company to do better.

So they've used the tool of collective bargaining to negotiate over their company's carbon footprint.

Severance packages, I know digital journalists, for example, who might have shorter term contracts, are very concerned about, you know, am I going to get that glide path to look for my next job and be able to have that severance to rely on?

So it's really what you want it to be.

The union members get to decide how they use that tool of collective bargaining and what's most important to them.

What percentage of your union is, Are workers in technology or tech now or heavily technology related companies, like you just mentioned, digital workers?

What percentage of your union is or of your group of unions is in that category?

Well, I see every job now as a technology job.

And so I think there's certainly all across industries we're seeing the advent of technology.

And that's one thing that the union actually gives workers a voice in how to shape it, how to develop it, how to implement it.

And as far as technology firms go, that's kind of a new and expanding area of the labor movement.

But certainly we represent workers in every sector of the economy and these are workers who get our country moving, who wake us up in the morning and put us to bed at night, because, you know, they're the people who are replacing being the lead pipes to make sure that we're drinking clean water.

They're responding to emergencies, firefighters, EMTs, teachers, health care workers.

And then folks, like I said, in the new emerging areas of the economy, like video game developers and other kinds of Silicon Valley workers, who see the greed that has gone on in these industries and are just trying to bargain their fair share of the wealth that they helped create.

And what what percentages do they see as a fair share?

Does each worker deserve 10% of what you know, a salary based somehow on 10% of what the company earns or what are we talking about?

Well, right now, CEO to worker pay ratio is about 350 to 1.

And so when we talk about inequality and we talk about workers who are trying to make ends meet, you think about 350 times the average worker.

It's just outrageous.

And in fact, Jeff Bezos, when he was CEO, made, I think in 7 seconds, what the average Amazon worker made in a year.

So I think what we're talking about is how do we balance the scales of the economy so that it's working for more working people?

And the only way we can do that is by banding together because when you go to your boss individually and you ask for more pay, what happens generally?

You're fired or you're disciplined.

And so this notion of coming together in.

(Bonnie) Seriously, you're disciplined?

You're not just told I would love to, but I can't.

That too, that too.

Most often you don't get the raise you're asking for, but negotiating skills, that's what we do in the labor movement.

And I've often said the labor movement could be such a place for especially women as we know in pay negotiations.

It's very challenging and most women don't end up asking for what they deserve because they don't necessarily have the training or the experience in how to conduct a pay negotiation.

So you don't bargain for levels of pay the way unions used to?

Oh, yes.

I'm talking about women outside of unions.

Okay.

All right.

Yeah.

No, in the union world, we definitely pay is top of mind and generally we bargain increases based on percentages.

That's what most of our contracts would include, you know, 3 to 5%, 7%, 10%, depending on how long the contract has been in place, what the conditions are in that industry, in that particular workplace.

It's this give and take of collective bargaining.

Also thinking about benefits because the cost of health care has gone up So dramatically that it's eaten away at our ability to continue to get pay increases because the cost of health care goes up so high.

And most of our contract negotiation workers do have good health care benefits with low to no premium payments and the ability to give and take process to say we health care is important to us, retirement security is important to us.

Making sure that we have paid leave when we have a child or when we come back from work that we're not penalized and that our job is waiting for us, which, you know, as we know, the laws in this country do not favor women in the workplace.

We don't have that social safety net or those supports as a country that we should.

And we're going to keep fighting for those.

And in fact, the labor movement has been on the front lines of that fight.

Have you been working with the Biden administration?

Do you think this president is doing enough for unions?

And please tell me what he is doing for unions?

Absolutely.

The Biden administration, Biden-Harris administration has been the most pro-union administration in history.

We have seen time and again the president stepping out in front, looking through the lens of working people with every decision that he's making.

And so whether it's starting with appointing a card carrying union member as the secretary of labor, who, of course, wakes up every morning thinking about workers because he was a laborer from the Laborers Union in his early days.

On to the Worker Empowerment Task Force that the president and vice president convened to take a look at the federal government and say, what could we be doing in each agency of this government to advance the interests of workers and empower workers to organize unions?

And so, you know, we every day we are in touch with someone in the administration on a policy or regulation messaging.

We definitely feel that we've been listened to in this administration and that the president has delivered.

You think about the the infrastructure bill alone, the amount of jobs that that's going to create at the community level is certainly paying dividends.

It has that haven't been approved.

The infrastructure bill is it and it's and it's at the point of letting contracts.

They're actually yes, they're actually at the agency level right now.

The money is going out the door as we speak.

Department of Transportation in particular is going gangbusters, getting those projects off the ground.

And so we've been watching that process very closely and making sure that there are labor standards and protections for workers written into the contract language so that when the money lands at the local level, that you're hiring people at good wages, good benefits, and making sure that our taxpayer dollars are being used to create good jobs.

And when you speak of massive new amounts of possibly at this point, union people going to work in certain areas, in certain communities, I've been told that Amazon in this is very colloquial.

I apologize, but in Northern Virginia, Amazon is taking over a part of the I wouldn't call it suburbs, but the you know, the city growth out just outside the DC borders of Northern Virginia and and Crystal City is what it has been called.

Anyway, there I understand they're trying to change the name of the area to National Landing because it's near Washington National Airport.

Anyway, What are you doing to make sure communities benefit the people in the communities, not just your union members benefit from this incredible expansion that's going to increase real estate values like crazy and really change the nature of neighborhoods, etc.. Well, whether it's Amazon or any other company, the labor movement is the watchdog.

We are at the table at the local level to make sure that those local governments are paying attention to the community impact and in particular, what kinds of job opportunities are going to be created.

Are we going to continue to create low wage, dead end jobs, or are we going to look to create high road, high wage jobs, especially if we're looking at taxpayer subsidies, which in the case of Amazon, absolutely.

You remember there was a big race between different cities who was going to attract the company with the most taxpayer subsidies.

And in fact, we've been holding Amazon accountable in New York because of their union busting activities before.

You know, during that campaign, that organizing campaign, they violated their contractual obligations with New York that they signed on to for the tax subsidies for JFK- 8 And so we're actually pursuing court action to hold them accountable.

So we are the eyes and ears.

We are making sure that not only union workers are benefiting, but entire communities, because we know the pathway to a good job is the most important economic indicator for a community.

And so we leverage the power and strength of our unions to benefit, to have that ripple effect across a local economy.

Because, as you know, the jobs that at the local restaurants, the the jobs in transportation and infrastructure and retail, they're all related.

And so this notion of rising tide lifts all boats.

We want to make sure that the jobs are actually good paying, decent jobs so that you don't have to work one, two and three jobs just to get by.

Well, thank you so much, Liz Shuler, the first female head of the AFL-CIO and a history maker in the history of women and unions.

Thank you for your time.

Thank you for joining us.

And you as well.

That's it for this edition.

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Funding for To the Contrry provided by The E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation.

The Park Foundation and the Charles A. Frueauff Foundation.